Edu: Founder Mental Health Pt. 2 - Expert Coach Explains Causes & Cures

Episode #88: Founder Mental Health 2 w Georgia Dienst

Chris: Before we get started on today's episode, a word of caution. In today's show, We'll be diving into topics that include mental health struggles. While we strive to approach these issues thoughtfully and provide valuable insights, it's important to note that we are of course not mental health professionals.

so this content should not serve as any kind of substitute for qualified medical advice. and if you or someone you know is dealing with mental health issues, we urge you to seek professional help immediately. National helplines and resources are available and immediate intervention is critical for effectively coping and managing these kinds of concerns.

With that, on with the show. I think founders need to think about investing in themselves in the same way that they would invest in their startup. And if it helps you to think about it this way, you are the thing that builds the thing that builds the thing.

You are at least as important. As the capital, as the features of your product, as your go to market strategy, you are at least as important as those other resources and facets of your business. And so, while you're spending endless amount of energy and time working on those things. You as the pivotal resource for your startup, deserve that kind of investment as well. Hi, I'm Yaniv.

And I'm Chris.

Georgia: Hi, I'm Georgia.

Yaniv: And in today's episode, it's the second in the series that we've devoted to founder mental health. In the previous episode of the series, we had a founder, Mike Philby, share his raw and personal story about mental health and burnout. Today, we're talking to a coach who helps founders deal with the many challenges they encounter, most especially around mindset and mental health. Georgia Deenst has had incredibly varied and successful career across business development, venture capital, and technology, including at X.

Google's famous moonshot factory. More recently, Georgia has focused on coaching other founders and executives, both privately and as a coach in residence at the Machari Method, the method pioneered by entrepreneur turned coach Matt Machari. She's kindly agreed to share some of her wisdom with us here at the Startup Podcast.

Georgia, welcome to the show.

Georgia: great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Yaniv: Now, before we started recording, we talked a bit about the fact that You've had personal experience with burnout, as a high performing professional, so maybe tell us a little bit about that.

Georgia: Yeah. gosh, where to start? I mean, I think the journey into, a burnout or a mental health crisis starts often much earlier than when we have the signs, so to speak, and I would say that for me, I had a Relatively good childhood. And yet there was obviously a lot of bumps, throughout the childhood, childhood trauma in a way.

And I just realized that I came out of the start in my twenties and had a huge amount of ambition, and ridiculous amounts of, pressure on myself to perform and to do things that were very grand and where I would garner, a vast amount of acknowledgement by people that were watching me, whatever that meant.

that pressure I think was with me. And I think during my twenties, Your body is so able to compensate for many, many, many things and many, late nights and, maybe too much alcohol and too much coffee. and I think my twenties were spent in startups

and it was this fantastic ride. It was exciting. It was exhilarating. many late nights, which are great because I think, especially in your twenties. The community aspect of being in a startup and that total melting of boundaries of like, who's a boss and who's a friend. And we all just in it together.

And I think there's something that feels like a family nearly. And it feels so incredibly just powerful and, sort of like being in love with somebody, you know, but you're in love with this whole thing. And therefore these boundaries just get. There are none. It's just one free fall. And I think the upside was the community aspect, the incredible achievements, the roller coaster ride, to me, went unnoticed because I was young enough to bolster it.

And as I entered into my thirties, these ambitions didn't really, necessarily go away and, I set myself bigger and bigger goals, and I think a huge part of that was that, brought me from, London and then to New York and then into Silicon Valley where, when I landed, I knew nobody.

Absolutely nobody. I very quickly noticed that I was definitely in a man's world on top of it. And this is really interesting, we all have these protective mechanisms of how we cope when we are at our limit. Mine was just to push harder and to pretend everything was just fine.

And I had this beautiful facade of just keeping a smiley face. And, leaning in more, the more it hurts or the harder I noticed my body was pushing back, the more I, leaned in. I think this is really the hardest thing about burnout is often, we are in a position that we had always dreamt of being in.

I had my dream job. I was in this place called Silicon Valley. I had. Achieved all these things I'd really wanted for a long, long time. Meanwhile, my body was pushing back so hard. And I, I remember walking whether it was out in Palo Alto, whether it was in San Francisco, just tears running down my eyes, having, real panic attacks and anxiety attacks, and.

Doctors in America love to just give you medication, which was wonderful because I could just take a pill and it would just temporarily all go away until it sort of came back. But I think the hardest thing was to, make sense of, hang on a minute. I have everything I've always wanted.

I've worked so hard to get here. And another part of me needs me to leave, and needs me to just exit all of this, because something is fundamentally not right, like, It's not right that I need to take pills to live this lifestyle, it's not right that I feel so torn that I'm sleeping so terribly. And it was incredibly humbling. At some point my mom got cancer and that to me was the excuse or the ability to say, you know what, I need to actually go take care of her. Somehow that gave me the excuse that I needed to just leave. I packed my bag, I went back to Germany and, I didn't realize I was leaving my job back then, but it was then a very slow, sure road to healing.

And it was incredibly humbling and incredibly scary because I had left everything I always wanted and I had no idea where it was going. all I knew that whatever had happened, wasn't working. It took me a good year and a half, if not two, technically three, depending on how you see it, to sort of, crawl out of the ashes, right?

I think there's sort of this beautiful image of the phoenix rising, and in the spiritual world, it's sort of your darkest moment of the soul, to kind of put yourself back together. It's sort of like everything in the house gets burned down and you kind of have to start from the ground up to go, who am I?

Like, what is it? for me, Burnout means it really burns out a a lot of belief systems and thoughts that I held about myself, of who I was and what I needed to do on planet earth to be lovable and to be worthy and to be recognized. And while it was, I think, the hardest thing I've ever gone through, Now, looking back, I'm so incredibly grateful, to this burnout because ultimately, I think I had to do a huge, adjustments in where I was heading with my life.

And I can now say my life feels a hundred percent like me. I love my life. I'm deeply fulfilled by what I do. I work at a very different pace. I have incredible family. And every day I'm just like, wow, this is so gorgeous. And I, would have not ended up here if I had not gone through this burnout that really burns out a lot of these notions that I held about myself and what I needed to do here.

Chris: I really resonate with your story on three different levels. You mentioned your childhood, came with its own traumas and its own narratives. my parents early on started telling me, you know, that I was clever and I had good perspective and that I could do anything I put my mind to.

And I was naive enough to believe them. and I, came out of that with a real of responsibility that I had to do something special. Right. You, put a lot of pressure on yourself that people are watching or people are expecting. And it was never in a sense of like, you must succeed. You must get A's.

It was more like just, wow, you're special. And you're going to be able to do whatever you want. and that, translated to a lot of. Responsibility and pressure. And then you mentioned this passion for startups and how it feels like you're in love. I often used to say it's not enough for me to be part of something, but it has to be part of me.

It has to be in my DNA. I have to basically fall in love with it. and for three quarters of my career, if I wasn't almost, I love the way you frame it, in love, there was no point for me to do it. I was only doing things I was in love with. and you mentioned the, doctor's giving you pills.

I actually had to get on anti anxiety pills to go to Silicon Valley. grew up with panic attacks and anxiety. And so at a certain point I decided I'm going to take these pills they were some of the ways I think I was able to commit to the move and commit to the trip on my own.

So, it resonates with me and probably resonates with a lot of the audience. I'm curious what made you get into this kind of work specifically, this coaching and this mental health space. Was it just having your own experience in that space or was it something broader and deeper than that?

Georgia: Yeah, I think I was asking myself that question, in the last couple of days. And as I mentioned earlier the journey starts quite early. So I think already in my early 20s. I noticed there's just certain things that were weird. just didn't feel super

grounded in my body. I noticed I had real boundary issues.

I couldn't have told you, Hey, I have boundary issues back then, but I noticed I just felt weird in the world. That's all I can say. And that clearly was childhood trauma. And so I think that set me off on a very early path to explore. My own reality consciousness. So I did Landmark Forum when I was 24.

And then I did a lot of work with Joe Dispenza back then. when I was 26, I started drinking plant medicines. I did meditation retreats and I really started chipping away at. What actually happens in our minds and hearts, what wires us and how do we deal with a lot of, things that we might not even know are there or that we don't have words for?

And that exploration was while I had my career, which, sort of went one way. I just had a very, I would say a very deep spiritual journey, that really informed me. And I read a ton of books and I really did a lot of different courses. And I think that know thyself as Socrates, said so correctly, this really understanding of ourselves and who we are, and that is not just the intellect.

I think in Silicon Valley, the intellect is so. put on this pedestal and the mind is all that matters. and then as you age, I think you realize, ah, hang on a minute, there's loads of other bits of ourselves, like our body and our heart. The heart space, and our soul, maybe if you want to call it that, that inform who I am to such a huge degree.

And that's also bring so many amazing things, right? our intellect can bring our career and it can bring, success and maybe money. But let's be honest, pleasure, orgasms, hugs, the feeling of a delicious meal. That's all physical sensations, physical pleasures. Those are the somatic things that bring a sense of fulfillment in our life.

And so that journey for me to understand that it's a lot of energy work also, and really understanding that I'm made up of a lot more than just my mind. Really led me into this coaching work and I was very lucky when I had just joined Google. I got very quickly, within six months of promotion, my team suddenly was huge.

And, my boss back then said, apart from doing a sort of manager course. Why don't you do a coaching course? and that was really the best gift somebody could have given me because I think back then I thought, okay, being a manager is telling people what to do, and I was definitely proven wrong about that and I'm glad I did that coaching course because it was more like, how do I, help?

Other people grow and how do I mirror things and help people really understand themselves in their job and how to do their best job? that was 2000 and 13 when I did that course. And it's really informed. so many, things in my life, including.

being a mother of two young children and realizing that this parenting role is very similar also to being a leader, where it's really leading by example and also leading with a lot of heart and with a lot of vulnerability and, admitting when I was wrong and repairing and in many ways, leaders in my books.

Should also, embody these values. And say the word embody, on purpose because it's, not an intellectual pursuit. you really embody these qualities. And then I think people just can trust you. And to me, that's why this coaching is so important is we currently lacking real embodied leadership, whether that's in.

The presidents of the world or the leaders of huge companies having more sincere, heart opened leadership, I think is what is so. Tremendously needed for us to make this huge pivot on planet earth so that we maintain an ecosystem here that we humans all can thrive in.

Yaniv: One thing we've, kind of touched on, both with your personal story, and I think also came through very clearly in our previous episode with Mike Philby.

there's data that suggests that founders and maybe high achievers more generally do, experience more than their fair share of mental health challenges and especially around burnout. why do you think that is?

Georgia:  How on earth can we believe that founders go through the pressure cooker that startup founding is without burning out? Like, would be impressed because the amount of fear, uncertainty, pressure, the incentive structures from the VCs, the levels of responsibility, levels of imposter syndrome because they've never done it.

not all of us are meant to be doing this. it's really, really intense. If you look at other people who maybe do similarly slightly bonkers things, let's say astronauts or Olympian athletes, they all have a huge team of people around them. Anywhere between like five and 20 people who look after their health, their mental health, who make sure they're really understood their stretching and their relaxation and how they sleep and their diet.

All these things are factored in and they have the best support to get them into the state to do that. And I think this is what we currently just think a person, a human in their early 20s can just go on to this. Journey by themselves and not burn out. And I think that to me is the fallacy. it's truly a fallacy.

And we setting up huge amount of people not only to fail, but, the mental health crisis that comes with it is intense and if there's families or their own family involved, then it truly has a huge ripple effect and a tremendous negative effect on the families of these founders.

Yaniv: We talked about the sort of achievement culture, right? this sense. Often from childhood, that if somebody, gets validated for achievement it becomes this hunger that cannot be satisfied, it's nearly like a video game, right, you achieve a certain level, you get rewarded for that, And then you are off to achieve at the next level, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one, and that goes right through school, right through university, right through your career in corporate settings.

You get your next promotion, your next pay rise, all of that, and at a certain point, the validation... becomes nearly like an addiction, right? You get addicted to that next level of validation. and the interesting thing that I think you've brought to this that hadn't occurred to me before is, the role of the body in this, right?

Which is, while you're young, every time you kind of level up, the achievement that's necessary in order to get that next hit of validation. your body can, rise to that occasion, but eventually you've reached a height and there is no height that is high enough, your body can no longer come along for the journey.

And that's maybe, where the burnout starts to come in, where you're like, oh, okay, the emptiness is still in me, but my ability to ignore it. by chasing the next level of achievement is no longer physically possible. and that's when the burnout catches up with you. Does that, resonate?

Georgia: it absolutely resonates. I let's just briefly, put our finger on this whole word of trauma, right? Trauma is a very healthy response. It's a protective mechanism. Of one's own system, right? So Let's say a parent screams as a child. In that moment, that level of, emotion to the child might be too much. So what does the child do? It quote unquote disconnects. So this also happens in rape. People leave their body very briefly or they disconnect from their physical experience because the physical experience might be overwhelming, And many, many, most people have a level of trauma, which means we are all very disconnected from our own bodies. we sometimes notice it, when there's like the third cup of coffee and maybe we feel some heart palpitation, maybe not, maybe we're like, oh, well, you just deal with it.

And we start talking faster, et cetera. But that disconnection in childhood through, levels of trauma means that we are not very sensitive anymore. we can't feel Things as sensitively as we should. So therefore the input from outside the success, the money, the excitement, the, input that we get to feel more needs to sort of level up.

But that, disconnection to the body, I think is, first and foremost, because if we all talk about it and we go, isn't it bananas Our mindset and how we think about ourselves, where we place our value, our own self value, into these companies, into our own company, into the teams, whatever we do is greater than our own sense of wellbeing.

And we ride ourselves into the absolute grounds. And if we just really think about that It is nearly a sign of madness that there's something wrong in the system that we all place our own self worth and value into these companies and into the evaluations and into the monetary side of things and totally neglect our bodies.

And I think that's. It's a societal thing. I think on planet earth, there's so many systemic issues around where we place value, whether that is consumerism, having more, doing more instead of being more. You know, we are human beings. and I think this is, where I hope in the next years, this is going to be rectified.

But I can only speak personally that those two, three years. After this burnout, we're really journey into my somatic experience. So I started doing yoga and I started doing yoga nidra. You can look up, Andrew Hubberman, yoga nidra. Things where we can learn to calm our own nervous system down.

And I truly believe in this world that is so run by dopamine hits. Those that know how to calm their nervous system and regulate their nervous system are going to be the real winners of the next 10 years, because I think we can all agree that feeling stressed or anxious is, such a normal state at this day and age.

Chris: George, I'm, wondering, you know, you said, it's a combination of education system and consumerism. And we also said, as a founder, how can you not be stressed out, right? It's VCs and expectations and customers and employees and culture.

And, I think those two things are absolutely true. It's kind of baked in to the society and to the situation you're in as a founder. what I'm wondering is, Is there some correlation between people who believe they can change the world, or that the world needs to be changed and they're the ones that can do it?

and being susceptible to this endless feeling of lack or a lack of, fulfillment a feeling that you're not good enough or things aren't good enough. Is there correlation between that, chip on your shoulder and this, propensity to push yourself too far and then to be despondent when, things aren't going well enough?

Georgia: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with you. there's a saying, I think a chip on your shoulder will bring you chips in your pocket. what is a chip on the shoulder? at the end of the day, the need to prove yourself. again comes from some sort of childhood trauma.

Right. And, there's also a saying along the lines of we can keep, chasing the person that we think we are, or we are able to befriend the person that we truly are. And I think only when we truly befriend that person, can we experience a sense of peace within and a sense of fulfillment and a sort of very calm, steady sense of happiness.

this is where everybody has to choose. You know, I think Elon Musk will always go after building that next company. That is just who he is. I don't think he's interested in inner peace. Not in this lifetime, maybe. a sort of level of energy that each of us holds when we come here to this planet.

I think this is where it gets a bit spiritual, whether it's your karma or whether it's your mission. And some people need to go through it. Like if you would have told me at age 30, Georgia, don't go to Silicon Valley. You're going to just burn out. It's going to be too intense. Like, what are you doing?

You should get married. And it's just like, get away, no way I'm going,

Chris: you know, even as you say this now, falling in love and befriending the person you are, I'm hearing, as someone who, fancies themselves an entrepreneur as a founder or a change maker, I'm hearing settle and, it's okay to be mediocre. And my wife and I are, trying to decide where to live and we're talking about almost retiring to Southeast Asia.

Or going to New York and getting back into the thick of it, my wife said to me, you will kill yourself in Southeast Asia, you will go crazy, you'll go mad, trying to befriend yourself, you know, essentially, trying to settle into the moment, you'll be bored within a month, is that just?

Who I am naturally, or is that childhood trauma that is, yelling in my ear? How do you know?

Georgia: that is the million dollar question. Right. And that's such a delicate multifaceted process to explore. Right. And I wish I could tell you the answer right now. I think we would have to dive a lot deeper and do quite a bit of coaching to find out,

Chris: this whole episode is an excuse for me to get free therapy, actually. So, uh,

Georgia: you know, this is this quote, know thyself. Find out that, and maybe one way to find out is to go to New York and see how it, goes, right? There is no great way to do this life, I think, To me, this burnout was an incredible, rectification to bring me back into a path. That feels now a lot more like me where I can do good.

For me, it was all impact oriented. I wanted to impact the world. I wanted to make a great impact. I impact in my way now. It's different. I'm not impacting billion people. Google X it was always, can we impact the lives of a billion people? I'm not doing that anymore, but I can impact the people that I'm working with.

And that feels like a really. Good, attainable, wholesome goal for me now. and I'm not saying anybody needs to stop their mission, needs to stop anything. And this is where it goes to sort of like what proactively can we even do to not burn out? I think there are sort of the, basic things like, having good sleep hygiene and diet and exercise and all this sort of basic stuff.

But then it is really working with either a therapist or a coach to better understand your own psyche, because the psyche is a very complex place. And for each of us, it's fundamentally different depending on what we've experienced and what we've come here with. But the better we understand our own strengths and weaknesses and triggers as to when do we lean in?

When do we feel unworthy? When do we want to prove ourselves and to just question those parts within us? call this parts work. Really questioning those parts and getting to know those parts because often These parts within us that have maybe pushed really hard or that are feeling unworthy are parts that we've pushed away and we've pushed them under the carpet because they're not very nice parts or don't feel very lovable.

And just the mere fact of taking them out from under the carpets. Having a conversation with them, getting to know thyself, can already alleviate a lot of that dichotomy and a lot of conflict that we carry within ourselves between a part that wants to sleep and take care of ourselves and another part that is pushing us relentlessly to prove ourselves in the world.

Yaniv: it's an uncomfortable place we've taken this conversation in a way, right? Because that's exactly what Chris was saying. We're talking in a sense about motivation. you used that phrase, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets. And in a sense, you want to work on yourself, if you want to massage that chip out of your shoulder, then in a way that, could take away some of that driving force that, causes you to have Impact.

And so, I suppose the question is, if you're talking at founders and not just founders, think anybody who is, I guess you'd say career oriented and achievement oriented, what are the healthy sources of motivation as opposed to these less healthy sources that ultimately lead to burnout and, unhappiness and anxiety along the way?

Georgia: you've summarized the whole, thing very well. And I think this is a really beautiful question. You know, I would like to caveat or just mention, I think there's loads and loads of people out there who are very successful. Where it's not coming from a place of trauma, where they have decades, multiple decades long careers, because they're able to actually look after themselves and because they're not doing the five year sprint and pushing themselves to the max.

Of course, they need to push. Of course, I will not deny that it takes a level of pushing and sacrifice to make a startup work. I am not the one saying that, you can just do your nine to five and think that you can build a startup.

Not at all. I see it. I understand it. And it's, Something that I think will potentially need to change. I think it has, again, something to do with incentivization structures. The venture model and venture capital is just something where they posh to get their returns within five to 10 years.

Therefore the pressure comes. I now coach at least three or four companies that are bootstrapped, where I'm not saying the pressure is a lot less, but it definitely feels that the freedom they have to navigate the businesses that they own a hundred percent It's a very different one than where they have shareholders in their cat table.

And so having said that, I think it's an ongoing conversation and I think it really is founder to founder specific. I think just having these conversations, raising awareness around it and for an individual, let's say they're noticing that things are going south. To reach out for help, whether it's through a friend, a coach, a therapist, a family member, to open up and be able to voice what's going on for them is, really the first step.

Chris: So, Georgia, maybe let's get, really tactical now, right? Really pragmatic practical, to help those listening to think through this in their own lives, in terms of actionable steps, And so, perhaps the place to start here is, what are the early signs that something's going wrong?

That there's this misalignment between your... mental state of, I need to change the world and your body, as you talked about the embodiment of, what's actually going on for you. What are some early signs to listen for, to, feel for, where you might, need to be careful and need to seek some help or, some balance in your life?

Georgia: I think for many, sort of comes very different, but I think when we start noticing that we're breaking our own word repetitively, like we sort of go, okay, as of Monday, I'm going to, stop smoking, or I'm going to stop drinking coffee, or I'm going to start including a bit of a walk every morning.

When we notice that we are going, you know what, I'm going to sleep when I've done the next raise. I'm going to start exercising once the money is in, or when we've reached, a half a million users, then I'm going to start doing X, Y, Z, or I will start seeing friends when X, Y, Z. So when we start making very basic needs dependent on sort of external factors in our mind, there's these sort of funny games that start happening.

usually these are very basic needs. Yeah. It's exercise, it's sleep, it's seeing friends, it's doing a weekend away. It's have some time off. These are often things that happen in our own minds. These are the little games we play with ourselves. It's like, Hey, if you push a little bit harder, then you'll get a bit of a reward over there.

When these start going on for too long, we know that we are already in funky territory because then we're really moving out of integrity. We're lying and sort of betraying ourselves in a way. and I think that's the first sign of going, okay. I maybe can't be going away for the weekend, but let's commit to something that I can commit to and then let's follow through.

Chris: That's a very particular kind of breaking your word where all the examples you gave You are connecting your self care needs to company goals and then breaking your word about taking care of yourself when you achieve a company goal.

And I think even connecting your basic self care to company goals in the first place is probably a problematic situation to be in, isn't it?

Georgia: absolutely. But I mean, I have founders who are way down the line, five, six year companies, and the founders still feel guilty to go and exercise. Because they feel the hour that they spend at the gym should rather be spent in the company. Right. This is somebody who's already got a very successful Series B company.

And so I only highlight this because it's a slippery slope. We don't notice when we start making these weird little packs with ourselves. these are little mental games that we play. trying to make us feel better about the fact that we're not looking after ourselves.

it's hard to sometimes know what is, normal. And there is no normal mental health. There's nothing, there's nothing normal in mental health because we are all on the spectrum of. Maybe a bit more neurotic, maybe a little bit more, ADHD. We all have sort of neuroses in our own psyche.

And the question is just becoming aware of them and going, Oh, because nobody from the outside knows what's going on in your head. I'm one of the very few people who's been given privilege. To jump into people's heads and to really, through conversation, understand what is happening in their minds.

And what I get to hear is I have to sometimes smile and I'm like, Did he or she just realize what she just said? You know, they sort of talked to me as if it's totally normal. And I'm like, Let's double click on what you've just said there and expand and see whether this makes sense.

Yaniv: You mentioned having children before, and all three of us on this podcast have young children and, as a founder myself, I've found the analogy between parenting and running a startup to be quite rich. no analogy is perfect, but, think there's so much there and, you often see a situation where parents sacrifice their own happiness.

For their children, right? They will do anything for their child, and they don't do anything for themselves, and they think that this type of Self sacrifice is What good parenting is But actually that's not healthy for children. Children want to see Parents who have joy in their lives, who have balance in their own lives, who put their own needs in the same ballpark as the child's needs And that that is actually part of what it takes to raise a healthy child.

and also the aspect of as a child gets older, you need to give it more space. You need to let go progressively, right? You need to start to disentangle your identity from the identity of your children. And I think both these things are things that I see parents get wrong, but I see founders get wrong much more often, right?

Which is to say, okay, I am going to Meld my identity with that of my startup, and I am going to sacrifice my own needs to the needs of my startup, because I think that will be good for the company. But actually, not only is it bad for you, ultimately it creates a fragility in the startup that I believe is bad for business too.

Georgia: Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful analogy and such a potent, important message out there. the image that comes to mind is when you sit in the airplane and they, oxygen mass drops, put it on, yourself first before you put it onto your children and the people around you.

And I think this is the same analogy is ultimately. Anybody who's regularly done exercise, who's eaten well and who's slept well understands that the mental capacity to deal with problems and to problem solve, to, have clear thinking, to make good decisions, et cetera. comes from that place.

And it's incredible. You're like, wow, I really feel like I'm, working up my octuple. We all know, especially as parents, when you've had a few nights of lack of sleep, what happens? Yeah. I mean, it's like torture, where suddenly all decision making goes out of the window and we become emotional mess.

And so I think. Truly these basic self care needs of exercise, diet, sleep, friends, in your life make you a better CEO. And I think that's really hard to understand, but similar to what you've, you know, drew that analogy to parenting. I 100 percent agree. I think as parents, we also need to show very clear boundaries and need to check in with ourselves, how we doing.

I'm very fortunate to have an incredible husband and partner to do this with where sometimes at the end of the evening, I'm just like, you know what, I need a timeout. I actually need a bit of. Just time away. And we do that to each other because we know that the other person is sort of maybe a breaking point or just has a, short fuse.

And just having that as such a luxury to have a co parent this with. And I think that's a similar thing in startups, having a good co founder, or a great board where you can also lean on in times that are tricky. and just sort of, you know, I actually just need an evening off. Maybe it's a day off over the weekend to just get back to myself is something that I, can highly recommend if it is possible.

I know it's not possible for everybody.

Chris: Yeah, that's such a great metaphor, I'm learning this myself with my, new son, and I think it works on two levels. Number one is it, it's

modeling good behavior and self care for your kids or by extension for your team. but it's also, as you say, George, you're putting the oxygen mask on yourself so that you can be a good intentional parent.

When you are engaging with your kids, because if you are constantly frazzled and burned out and, regretting your life choices, even the time you spend with your kids is going to be poor quality and it's going to be biting or sharp or impatient or what have you. And so, on both levels. It's good for your team to model this behavior so they can do their best and to be able to show up as an intentional leader, a high quality intentional leader for your team if you yourself are arrested and doing some amount of self care.

Georgia: I think this is where rituals or routines come in, right? So for me and my husband, Sunday afternoons are ours. we're fortunate enough to be in a position to have. a nanny from time to time. And so Sunday afternoons, we have real one on one time.

This is time for us to connect to her, to be intimate, to share, to talk, to have fun. and I sort of recommend that to founders who are in relationship to really have a time with your partner to drop in and really have that connection time. Because I've also had founders where, they're going suddenly through divorce on top of dealing with a startup, which is double intense.

So to nurture important relationships. And it's the same thing between co founders to really have, maybe Friday afternoon, an hour and a half where you go for a walk together or where you. Connect that is not in the office to also catch up as friends or as, people that work together, but more on an emotional basis and we call this a check in basically.

It's just one person talking about how their week was, what's going on for them, what's driving them crazy, what's making them happy, whether they're grateful for, just so that they have a place to actually go a bit over and beyond just the day to day. madness of managing a family or madness of managing a startup.

Chris: Yeah, that's another way that the family analogy really applies to startups where, your employees are your kids, the startup is your kid, and your co founder is your life partner in a sense. So we talked about these mind games that you play with your self care, tying them to corporate goals.

and that's oftentimes the first signs you're doing something that will lead to burnout. Georgia, what are some of the other mindset traps that Founder's falling into that is contributing to this lack of mental health and burnout?

Georgia: I think the minute sort of sleep diet, exercise goes out of the window. You already have a problem, right? we all fall off that wagon. Yeah. We all like maybe start eating pizza for a while. We don't do the exercise. The problem is not falling off the wagon.

It's how long it takes you to get back on the wagon. okay, fine. You just had two weeks, of, you know, debauchery. When can you commit to doing exercise again and eat healthy? So that there's really, that's how quickly do we get back on? I think if we're talking about mindset, it has a lot to do with your personal boundaries and where you place your self worth, right?

And, this is truly why ultimately working with a coach or working with somebody who can help you understand what your individual. Traps are, so that you create awareness. Ultimately, what we need to do is create awareness around these triggers and these traps and these ways where we fall in a quasi hole, with ourselves.

often, it's really hard for us to see that ourselves because we are like a fish in water. We, swimming in our own mental soup every day. We don't know. how it could be different. And this is where work with the therapist or coach comes in to reflect back and for you to gain better awareness of your own mental construct.

Yaniv: so are there, specific examples of like types of mindset traps that, you know, you work with a lot of individual founders, CEOs, I think those are your two specialties. Like are there things that you see patterns of thought or behavior that you actually see over and over again things people should watch out for?

Georgia: I mean, I think imposter syndrome, but it's kind of a hard not to have an imposter syndrome when you're starting a company, because you're doing a ton of new stuff all the time, right. And you're constantly learning and growing. I think there's, a lot around perfectionism, right. And what is perfect and, how perfect can a product be?

Perfectionism really a slippery slope. There's a hero complex of needing to rescue the world, save the world, create things that will hugely impact the world. all of these sort of point towards what we call the drama triangle, or the Catman triangle, where we have a victim.

We have a prosecutor and we have a rescuer. and we all like to play one of these roles and depending where we are, we might be like, Oh, I'm feeling terrible. It's been so stressful. And we kind of go into victim mentality during the day. And then in the evening, the hero comes and says, Okay, fine.

We'll have, two glasses of wine. It's going to make you feel better. prosecutor, shames us and makes us feel wrong and, you haven't worked enough. It's only eight o'clock in the evening.

I bet everybody else in Silicon Valley is working till 11 o'clock. Like, put in the hours, otherwise you're not going to get there. That kind of voice, right? And It's not a very healthy way to live. These voices, being on this drama triangle creates a lot of conflict and a lot of, issues within us.

 I would say one of the main key things I see in founders is really a lack of self worth, especially when I speak to.

Very successful, founders, really being privy to how deep some of this lack of self worth runs.

it really, it, personally affects me in the sense that my heart goes out because I realize, again, from the outside, they look like they have everything. They have a fantastic company. They have lots of success and yeah. That sense of self worth hasn't changed since day number one.

And it's, where all of this becomes really, a very personal journey into creating self worth and establishing sense of self worth and boundaries. And that is a process. I wish I could say that that is only a few coaching session, but that really takes a bit of time.

Chris: Mike Philby shared concern about his self worth. we asked him what he had done to work on his problems. And he said, actually, I've done less than I should, because in some ways I didn't believe that I deserved to be. Helped and worked on. that was, I think one of the most honest and brave parts of the interview where admitted that.

and, it's interesting to hear that that's a common, thing. It's also interesting, I think There are some subset of founders who go into building their own company, ostensibly because they just don't want to boss, they're like, Oh, I thought I just want to go work for myself because it feels like an easier, better path for them and it's less responsibility or something, and so clear that being a founder, at least a founder with any sense of, obligation, responsibility, ambition, startups are the furthest thing from easier and not having a boss is not a luxury. It is actually an enormous amount of pressure, that you place upon yourself.

and I think some founders who get in this for that reason, are sorely, missing the point and will be sorely disappointed, I think.

Georgia: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The multiple reasons why people get into this game. I think definitely over the last 20 years, it has also been hyped as the thing to do, like if you don't start a company, then like, what are you doing with your life? I think also in that podcast.

I share so much with what he said around not really wanting my children to start companies. Yeah, I went through, have a father who's a founder. I have a husband was a founder. I think he also himself had to go through that humbling, period of realizing the impact of him continuously working, and what that had on us as a family, right.

And how it destroys family. And it really.

is not talked enough about, it is always only talked about how, Instagram three founders made, X amount of billions and sort of how simple and easy that was. And I think that's such a fallacy. And I'm grateful. There's more voices coming out, about the real pitfalls and the downsides and the extraordinary, Difficulties that the founder's journeys can have on your psychological mental health, as well as maybe your families and friends and so forth.

Chris: So, media that's hyping up startups. So basically you're saying we're part of the problem, Georgia. Is that what you're saying? Um,

Georgia: Well, part of the problem, part of the solution. I truly believe entrepreneurship can be done in a wholesome way. I think there are examples of it. I don't think these are the examples that are being hailed around the world. Because often these are companies that get built over 20 or 30 years and not over five.

Yaniv: Chris was obviously joking a little bit, I hope Chris, but yeah, I think there is actually a point here, which is with our podcast, one of the things we see is like you say, Georgia, this sort of founder life, and entrepreneurship has been hyped a lot and we find a lot of people who come into the game.

Of, let's say, startups without knowing the unwritten rules of the game. And so, you know, one of our unofficial taglines is that we help explain the unwritten rules. And I think, toll it takes on you, what you need to be willing to go through, what you need to do to look after yourself, that is part of the unwritten rules.

And so that's why we see our episodes on mental health as being super important, because we hear from our listeners, yeah, you know, this is something I struggle with, and they often, don't even know why. you mentioned the imposter syndrome and so on, they don't know why they're struggling with it, and they don't realize that Other people struggle as well.

something amazing I heard this week actually is that there was an interview with the founder of NVIDIA, Jensen Huang. So NVIDIA is the chip company that powers, all of AI. I think it's a trillion dollar company or at least it was recently. And he was asked, what would he do differently if you had to do it all over again, and he said, oh, I wouldn't have started NVIDIA because I don't think it's been worth the personal cost.

And, you know, this is somebody who's founded one of the most successful companies of the last few decades, or of all time in some ways, and this is his reflection. So, this is definitely not for everyone, and it, definitely takes a toll. Again, like parenting, life's definitely easier if you don't have kids, and life's definitely easier if you don't have a startup.

It can be incredibly rewarding, but understand, cost that it exacts from you. And then, and this is why we're talking to you, Georgia, learn how to look after yourself. So you can do this in the long term, and so that you can look back on it and say, I'm glad I did that, not, I wish I hadn't.

Chris: Yeah, actually, that reminds me of a movie called The Comedian, which is a bio documentary on Jerry Seinfeld, following him around as he's re... building his set from scratch. threw away all his material. And, in the last few moments of the whole documentary about how successful he's been and how incredible he is and how he's at the top of his craft and has nobody been like him before.

the interviewer is like, so, what do you want to do next? why do you keep working so hard? And he, kind of just looks out of the middle distance and he just goes. I just want to do something important feel like I've made an impact.

It's just like, Jerry Seinfeld, who's had the most successful, situational comedy in the history of the world, he was at the top of his game, has made the most money in his field ever.

even he feels unsatisfied, unfulfilled, and like he is not yet a success. and I know there are some other founders who are very successful, who have created, household name companies who are still out there hustling to try to prove that it wasn't a fluke. To prove that they could do it again.

and we've mentioned another founder an investor who's been incredibly off the chart successful. Who's escaped to the bush to meet to try to find what does this all mean? Because he's got all the money and he's still not happy. and so as we touched on in the last episode about this, this emptiness and this need to prove yourself is not going to be fulfilled by your startup.

that's something you need to work on with a coach and with a psychologist and on yourself and being present. because that's not the path to filling that hole.

Yaniv: the chip on your shoulder puts chips in your pocket, but it never actually cures you of the chip on your shoulder. Georgia, if... Somebody is listening to this, and no doubt there are people listening to this who are struggling with feelings of burnout, or other related issues, who are listening to this episode and nodding along, but also maybe feeling a little bit uncertain what to do about it, a little bit helpless.

What would you advise them to do?

Georgia: I think it goes back to these very basic tools, like really having good sleep hygiene, eating well and trying to exercise. that's sort of the, thing that every founder can, try and improve on as hard as it might be in the circumstances that they're facing.

And I'm aware that. Sleeping eight hours might not seem like an option for many founders. and then I do believe... The issue that gets created of going into burnout comes from a particular mindset that we have. And changing one's own mindset is at times possible, but having somebody help makes it a lot easier because it's really, as I mentioned, really hard for us to even notice the, the water that we're swimming in .

and so seeing whether somebody in the startup community knows a startup coach or whether there's a good therapist, the great thing is we live in times now, which I think 20 years ago, just didn't exist where through zoom, you can, through not a huge amount of money, find people to support you in this journey, and I think The stigma also around having a coach or having a therapist has dropped significantly.

It's no longer, weird thing, or there's something fundamentally wrong with you. It's actually, I think, more and more becoming a fantastic tool for founders to have in their tool set to rely on in times that are challenging so I can only, hope that. This gives founders the courage or the, impetus to reach out, and find themselves a coach.

Ideally, not when things are really, really bad already, but if you already notice that, things are going downhill, reach out earlier than later so that you have somebody in place in case it gets worse.

Chris: would say that last point is so, so important, right, Georgia, which is, I think founders need to think about investing in themselves in the same way that they would invest in their startup. And if it helps you to think about it this way, you are the thing that builds the thing that builds the thing.

You are at least as important. As the capital, as the features of your product, as your go to market strategy, you are at least as important as those other resources and facets of your business. And so, while you're spending endless amount of energy and time working on those things. You as the pivotal resource for your startup, deserve that kind of investment as well.

And so, as you said, before you start having symptoms of burnout, before it's too late, you need to, be in maintenance mode. On this incredibly important resource and that way, maybe it takes it out of the realm of, do I deserve or have self worth to work on myself? Or, do I have an imposter syndrome or, do I have the time to do this?

At least are in the foxhole with your startup. And you are a resource for your startup, and maybe that'll make it more digestible, more relatable to some of those founders who can't find the impetus to prioritize themselves.

Georgia: Yeah. Beautiful. Absolutely.

Yaniv: Thank you so much for your time today. It's really been very valuable conversation. I'm sure our listeners will agree. if people do want to think about working with you as a coach, or if they're just keen on following you online, where can they find you and how can they get in touch?

Georgia: so, I'm a coach, at the Moshari Method. if you look up the Moshari Method, it is also a fantastic online resource. It's about, I think, 88, Google documents with, the most proven tools and sort of tactics on how to run your business, everything from how to give feedback, to do one on ones, how to have hard conversations or, deal with Really a fantastic free online resource, which you, can find under, the Mashari method. we as coaches are not solely focused on, burnout or mental health at all. We really help fast scaling companies, really getting the right processes in place, really building, systems around them.

So that these companies can be the sort of rocket ships, that they are. while we also obviously make sure that we deal with. Any other more emotional, mental issues that come up for the founders. and alternatively, I have a website, which is just my name, georgiadienst.

com or LinkedIn or Twitter,

all under my name.

Chris: And of course, we'll have all of those links and references in the show notes. So people will be able to go look down there as well.

Georgia: Fantastic. Thank for having me today.

Chris: Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure, George. Thank you very much for own vulnerability, on the subject and sharing your insights and experience working with so many founders. It's really been fantastic. Thank you.